Curse

Shuuda · Apr 15, 2008, 06:18 PM // 18:18

Quote:

Don't like ursan groups?Make your own.Its that easy!

What are the odds of finding a half decent player in PvE?

Perhaps my oppostion to PvE skills is my belief that once you complete PvE, you are supposed to move on to PvP (Which was actually how the game was first designed.), thus relying on PvE Skills prevents the move on or spawns more of the "it's ok to play degenerate gimmick builds" Attitude.

Once again, I do take some enjoyment in knowing I put effort into learning my profession without then throwing it away for easy vanity items and money. My reward is somewhat greater.

-Sonata- · Apr 15, 2008, 06:51 PM // 18:51

There needs to be/ should be a fix. I just don't think this is the right one.

I've felt the UB exclusion first hand. I have no desire, at all, to grind away getting my norn rank to 8+ especially as a mesmer (or on rare occasion when I play my Derv). I can't say I hate the skill; to be honest I've never used it. I can say though that I hate what the skill has caused many players to become.

However, even before UB, we still had exclusions from groups. Granted, perhaps it wasn't as bad as it is now, but it was still occuring. In my earlier days I was laughed out of teams because my Cry of Pain wasn't a high enough rank.

The unfortunate truth is that the minority of Guild Wars players are players who, like yourself Shan, realize that with well thought out builds, planning & execution, communication and teamwork by all will yield success without the need of cons and overpowered PvE skills. I, too, agree to that. Sure, it may take a tad longer than average, but if the end result is still victory, time isn't an issue, unless under a time limit.

However, the majority of mentality is "The quicker the better." You can't convince me that it's not this way. Players nowadays want what they want now.

Run me here..
now run me there...
Ferry me to the docks..I need my max armor at level 1.
I'm at the docks, but wait I'm only level 1 and don't have the money or materials. Begin spamming "Can someone lend me money for armor?".
Run me through this mission
HFFF Leech slots available!
Can ne1 powerlvl me??

The list goes on and on because it's a majority mentality of "I want it now in the easiest way possible". That's not something Anet can fix directly without suffering the outcry of another group of people saying something else has been destroyed.

Taking a large leap, assume UB was nerfed to the point of being useless, players would just develop a new way of making it "Quicker the better". That would bring in a new exclusion list.

As said, You can't change player mentality, especially when it's a majority and to me that is the main root of the issue; Player mentality. If X-Build exists that can dominate X-Area quickly, there's no need to bring along x-profession, even without UB in the picture.

Shan, like you, I hate to see players being left out. I for one applaud you for showing others and helping others in teams that do areas without the "Bring this bar or gtfo" attitude. I admire it.

However, I still feel the source of the problem is greater than a skill, or skills(s), or a con set. Even more so, I think it's beyond that, but is more directly related to a majority of mentality in the game. While I don't agree with the mentality, I certainly understand why it's there. Why take 2 hours to do something when it can be done in half that time? We're all like that in real life. Why take two hours to cook the meal when I can order it in 30 minutes. Why write a personal letter, or call someone voice-to-voice, when I can email, or text message? We live in a world of instant gratification. We're all guilty of it, but some live by the mantra, especially a majority, more than others.

But again, that's just not related to UB. Remove UB and the next dominating build takes its place and recycles the issue.

So in closing, I do agree, in principle, something is messed up. There is a fix out there, somewhere, but I just don't know what that fix would be, could be, or ever will be. I just know, from my perspective at least, that it's a grealy complex problem that goes deeper than what is observed on the surface.

the_jos · Apr 15, 2008, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonata

The unfortunate truth is that the minority of Guild Wars players are players who, like yourself Shan, realize that with well thought out builds, planning & execution, communication and teamwork by all will yield success without the need of cons and overpowered PvE skills.
.....
Why take 2 hours to do something when it can be done in half that time? We're all like that in real life. Why take two hours to cook the meal when I can order it in 30 minutes. Why write a personal letter, or call someone voice-to-voice, when I can email, or text message? We live in a world of instant gratification. We're all guilty of it, but some live by the mantra, especially a majority, more than others.
But again, that's just not related to UB. Remove UB and the next dominating build takes its place and recycles the issue.

Fair observation.

The thing that makes UB special in this case is that it almost completely removes the "well thought out builds, planning & execution, communication and teamwork".
Build? UB. Planning & exection? Rush in and kill. Communication? "I'm targeting X". Teamwork? Stick together so both seeds will cover all players.
This is what makes UB truely overpowered, not the +health, + armor and the damage & KD.

Why?
With UB all one needs to suceed is to have one decent leader and 7 or 11 others who can follow orders. That's all.
All the leader has to know is how to execute the quests and which skills are needed to do that.
He can then go to an outpost and yell "forming UB team for X, need Y ursan and Z monks".
Instantly he can fill most spots with the available UB players and monks, no need to align builds just make sure that the required skills are present.
No need to tell people how to play a certain build, just follow directions and smash 1,2 and 3 on recharge.

It was never possible to team up that fast with the old teams except when scheduling something in guild/alliance.
The moment PUG players were involved it could take up to or more then 45 minutes to get a team with the right skills together.

Now we enter the area.
What we see is that an inexperienced UB team is faster than an inexperienced non-UB team.
That again is an advantage that is purely based on the limited team build with UB. There is no need to do complicated things, just run and smash.
An experienced and well coordinated non-UB team would finish faster than an inexperienced UB team. Experience and coordination did not completely lose their value.
Even if the next dominating build takes its place if UB gets nerfed it would take the inexperienced team longer to complete the area. Just because the team would probably require more coordination.

Slower teams and more risk = less profit/hour and could cause areas to become deserted again.

Now to the world of instant gratification.
There is a reason people want that.
It's called too much to do in limited time. Something people could never handle very well.
In Guild Wars this is mainly caused by the invention called titles, Hall of Monuments and second by prestige items.
It's easy. Every minute doing something means I can't do anything else.
Vanquishing means I am not working on my protector title.
And working on protector does mean I won't get that UW statue at the same time. Finishing UW does mean I can't get Obsi sword to drop.
To get all of those in reasonable time I need to do a lot and do it fast.
Farm for all those 1M titles like drunk/sweet and party.
Play as much areas as possible to max titles and HoM. Never do anything twice when it's not needed.

It's hard not to fall for that.
I have always played for fun and feel lucky it stayed that way.
Well, most of the time, as guild leader there are times that I wish to be member again and not to feel a certain responsibility. But that's off-topic.
Others were cought by the title/prestige trap and had a hard time recovering.
People being very upset by failing a vanquish and ranting about it.
Achieving certain goals and lose interest in the game right after that because the next step would be months away even when playing every spare minute on a day.
I had some serious talks with someone who started to feel he was playing too much.

There is no turning back here.
A-net will not remove titles from the game.
They are there to close the gap between GW1 and GW2 and are ment to take forever.
Player mentality will not change, a significant number of players want every title maxed yesterday and all prestige items on all characters.

However, don't forget that there is less visible group who are not like this.
Who do play for fun and would like to share that.
Maybe that number of players is even larger then the number of 'greedy' players but those greedy players are a lot more visible.
For example, two very good (RL) friends of me play GW and have a lot of fun doing that together.
You will probably never see them in the populair outposts because they play with a very close group of people or with H&H. Once in a while they pick up a player who happens to do the same as they. If I say DVDF, agro, GoE, EHM, Kaiz or any other guild except mine and my alliance they would not know who I'm talking about.
I think there are a lot of those players around but you just don't see them that often. And meeting them is hard, they know about wiki but I'm not sure they ever read fansites like guru. All they know about are the official A-net events that are on the login screen. Or the events they hear about from friends.

Maybe the real problem is that a relatively small number of players is making a huge impression and dragging others along.
Maybe things are not as bad as they seem, I have yet to see HM groups outside elite areas who require UB + cons.
Could be a matter of time and things will change. I don't know.
For now the moment I see such a group I will probably laugh and might even start my own team next to them and call for a competition.
Let's see how good UB really is compared to a team adjusted to the mission/vanquish.

The Little Viking · Apr 16, 2008, 12:34 AM // 00:34

Ok, so what you are saying is this....punish the people that "choose" to use a PvE skill that is implamented into the game FOR US TO USE? Was it meant to be just a decoration in the skill choice screen? I THINK NOT! Are any of us being Hurt or Injured in any way because Mary or Joe decides to go out with pain inverter or necrosis or ursans on his or her skill bar? I dont belive i've been hurt. Im sorry, But the person that used a PvE only skill or put up a consumable is usually working just as hard as the next person in the party is to make it to the end in one piece. Punish someone that spent their hard earned money and excess skill point on the used consumable? I dont agree. These things (PvE skills and consumables) were put in the game for us to use or not use as we see fit. We should not be punished for something that we choose to use that is 100% legal to use in the game. We are already punished for using ursans or pain inverter by the god awful grind just to get the points up high enough to be useful.

capblye · Apr 16, 2008, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Its an interesting topic, and its nice to see that it hasnt completely turned into a flamefest.

The "fix" to the game may come in the simplest form of GW2.

Alot of the problems folks complain most about, can somewhat be attributed to an "overpopulation" in GW.
More players means more items, so less demand, therefore less value.
More players means more instances being generated by servers, and if the theories behind the drop rates is correct, then drop rates would be directly effected by how many instances are being generated at any given moment.
More players means more people to abuse the flaws in the game, and to spread those flaws around rapidly.
More players means more people for Anet to cater to, and appease making it harder for them to weigh out the value of a good idea.
More players means more people creating a segregated enviroment with the use of cookie cutter builds and UB parties in Pugs and guilds.

What will hopefully happen will simply be that the smash n grab crowd will migrate away from GW1 toward GW2, as their general mentality of "instant gratification" goes hand in hand with "newer is better".

As they migrate away, GW will hopefully retain dedicated players who wish to savor the game in all of its facets, making it easier to group with pugs of the same ilk.
It can go either way, and only time will tell, but i suspect that GW1 will look much like the Desolation once GW2 is released, and im happier for it.

Mayhap items will increase in value to an extent for lack of massive farming, drops may increase due to less instances being generated simultaneously, and better players might actually join a party without being too afraid its full of bad players.

One can hope right?

RhanoctJocosa · Apr 16, 2008, 02:42 AM // 02:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snow Bunny

Right.

I've provided a valid response.

Now argue against it. Your argument ignores mine entirely, not to mention that on a game balance scale, has no weight whatsoever.

I'm waiting for you to realize that for once Rhanoct, you might possibly be wrong.

I'll try spell it out as simply as I can for you.

1) ANet nerf/remove cons
2) People who've bought them to buy/sell lose
3) Problem

Answer me directly or don't at all.

EDIT:I'm only addressing one part of your argument- couldn't care less for high-end items as with FoW/UW/Z chests they've lost any rarity they might've had.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkobra

My words exactly. Snow's disproved you and all you can do is brush it off and ignore it.

I know you have a grudge against me but just stfu please.

DarkGanni · Apr 16, 2008, 03:31 AM // 03:31

I'm tired of the ursan in every city, but nerfing chest drops when a pve skill is used isn't the right solution, this isn't the players fault the skill is good and works in every area.

But anyways all I want to say is whoever doesn't like ursan, join a guild that plays with normal builds, stop screwing other players' fun.

- Ganni

Elena · Apr 16, 2008, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Buff raven and Volfen

they are lonely :P

kazjun · Apr 16, 2008, 04:15 AM // 04:15

/unsigned

Get rid of ursan, godmode and imbagons than what? Think everyone will then magically run friendly and diverse builds? Hell no. What then? Start a campaign to get rid of dslash? Searing flames? Echo MS? How about SS? Barrage? Or 55's and 600's? Obby tankers? What, you're using barrage, with a pet and splinter weap? Sorry, but you'll get crap from the end chest and no credit in your book?

Seems like rather than freeing up people's choices in what skills they can bring, you'd just end up restricting people to play a different set of skills instead. The old school cookies. Not to mention that old school cookies are much more selective of what classes you are as well.

There will always be tiers of great skills, good skills, and stuff you shouldn't touch with a 10 foot pole. Let the majority of people choose for themselves how they want to play the game, rather than having a minority impose their own choices on everyone else. After all, why's it matter to you so much?

Snow Bunny · Apr 16, 2008, 04:18 AM // 04:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by RhanoctJocosa

I'll try spell it out as simply as I can for you.

1) ANet nerf/remove cons
2) People who've bought them to buy/sell lose
3) Problem

Answer me directly or don't at all.

EDIT:I'm only addressing one part of your argument- couldn't care less for high-end items as with FoW/UW/Z chests they've lost any rarity they might've had.

The economic effect consumables have on high-end items is reasonably more significant than any repurcussions nerfing consumables would have.

I understand you're not addressing the high-end items, but they have to be considered as consumables are used quite frequently for FoW/UW/DoA and thus affect the rate at which these items can be obtained.

At that point, you have to gauge which is would cripple the economy more. What I'm saying in this instance is that playing the consumables market is having less of an economic effect than the devaluing (s?) of high-end weaponry.

Mr. Undisclosed · Apr 16, 2008, 04:25 AM // 04:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shuuda

Oh, and too all those who say "dont li4e Ursan, odnt playz itz" What if one day I wanted to play DoA, but since there are only Ursan parties, it's hard of me then to not play it unless I happened to have a guild that happened to want to do DoA at the exact same time as me?

I think you're forgetting that there wasn't many people even in DoA before ursan came so I don't think its really changed that aspect.

Quote:

What are the odds of finding a half decent player in PvE?

What were the odds before? No one really pugs anymore besides new players, most people rely on guild groups.

Anyway to the main topic, /notsigned unless you'd also like to buff PvE skills to go along with the nerf to drops. Just because there are a few overpowered skills doesn't mean they all are, therefore people who use PvE skills that don't give them a huge advantage won't get screwed out of drops.

Angelina Collins · Apr 16, 2008, 01:43 PM // 13:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanaeri Rynale

Punished how? you could argue you are being punished for playing in normal mode because in hard mode the drops are better, you get tomes, double gem drops, lockpicks and XP. You are being rewarded for a greater challenge not punished.

Running no cons and pve skills is a greater challenge, so why not reward that also? All the suggestion was, was to extend the principles introduced in hard mode. Make the game harder, get better rewards. Nothing more, nothing less. I fail to see any lack of honor in this?

Honor is seeing the average player who has little time to farm, whatever money they make on a run is used up to pay for the next one, Of being unable to get a team, or being pressured into a play style that forces him to pay to play. Honor is saying this is wrong and having the guts to stand up and say it. Honor is also admitting you were wrong to judge someone and not then pretend it was something else.

I don't hate Ursan, I hate the exclusion, and negative impact it and it's ilk are causing. Thats a subtle difference.

I fail to see any negative impact ursans is having on the game, in fact being so common, it gives players who would otherwise have no chance at a particular area, a chance to play that area. DOA is a prime example, I could never play that with my war because all the build required other characters in the team except a war. Now ursans comes along and as long as I have decent rank I can get into a team.

Up for the challenge arguement is BS, the PvE only skills and consumables came out to offset PvP skill balance and make PvE more interesting. The rewards for playing particular areas should stay the same for all, reguardless of what builds, skills, or advantages you use. Your suggestion, the way I see it is out of discuss for the current system and you want to force change.

You then reap all the benifits while others suffer. And don't think that you are all that skilled because you don't use PvE only skills. I remember all the gimmick builds before them, 55 monks, 55 necros, ect. Players would argue that those build designs were just as cheap as using PvE only skills or comsumables.

Face it your bored with the game, my suggestion is that you play another until GW2 comes out.

the_jos · Apr 16, 2008, 07:28 PM // 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelina Collins

I fail to see any negative impact ursans is having on the game, in fact being so common, it gives players who would otherwise have no chance at a particular area, a chance to play that area. DOA is a prime example, I could never play that with my war because all the build required other characters in the team except a war. Now ursans comes along and as long as I have decent rank I can get into a team.

Funny how you actually contradict yourself in this small part of text.
One one side you say you don't see any negative impact on the other side you experienced the exclusion in DoA yourself.
How it works now: own EotN, get Ursan Blessing and work up to a decent rank or be unable to play.
It's the same kind of exclusion only based on having a single skill with a decent rank instead of having the wrong profession.

Also, I don't feel your statement on DoA requiring other characters except a war is entirely true.
I know we used a W/E terra there as tank when a warrior wanted to join and it never was a problem.
Could be it got harder after the change on the spells causing people to look for elementalist tanks instead of warriors, I'm not sure about that.
If we are talking about profession exclusion I'd say look at the assassin.

Now you might not have been able to join a group because you did not have the right skills to tank or because groups had tanks they knew. Also DoA needed one tank and several of other professions, making teaming easier for those players. But it's a different kind of exclusion then profession exclusion.

What the current problem is a profession exclusion.
Only now this profession is not an actual guild wars profession but a virtual profession called Bear, based on one skill, Ursan Blessing.

Don't get me wrong.
I think Ursan Blessing could be an awesome skill to prevent profession discrimination.
Load the skill and you will get an entire different profession, Bear.
One that is powerfull enough to compete with every real profession.
However, it caused the same kind of problem the skill was supposed to solve.
Profession discrimination.

This is part of the core problem presented by Shan.
The other part is having to pay to enter an area with such a group.
Not the entrance fee but either a consumable set (market price around 7K) or chipping in on a set, roughly 1K/set.
I think the first is a bigger problem then the second, the elite areas pay for themself.

English Warrior · Apr 16, 2008, 08:06 PM // 20:06

Ok its simple ursan opens up slots for all professions to play a build not just one last time it was limited so quit ruining some peoples favourite skills cause you dont like em ok?

Fear Me! · Apr 16, 2008, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Little Viking

Ok, so what you are saying is this....punish the people that "choose" to use a PvE skill that is implamented into the game FOR US TO USE? Was it meant to be just a decoration in the skill choice screen? I THINK NOT! Are any of us being Hurt or Injured in any way because Mary or Joe decides to go out with pain inverter or necrosis or ursans on his or her skill bar? I dont belive i've been hurt. Im sorry, But the person that used a PvE only skill or put up a consumable is usually working just as hard as the next person in the party is to make it to the end in one piece. Punish someone that spent their hard earned money and excess skill point on the used consumable? I dont agree. These things (PvE skills and consumables) were put in the game for us to use or not use as we see fit. We should not be punished for something that we choose to use that is 100% legal to use in the game. We are already punished for using ursans or pain inverter by the god awful grind just to get the points up high enough to be useful.

I agree, and for the first time, with all these pro ursan posters. Using their logic, and I know they will all support me in this matter, it is now time for anet to unnerf 'seed of life' and 'theres nothing to fear'. So what if 'seed of life' and 'theres nothing to fear' prenerf allowed me to have a one skill cheesefest to victory? At least it did not require you to have a particular expansion in order to be accepted in all elite area pug groups as ursan does, even the pro ursans would have to agree with me there. I know I've got all the pro-ursan supporters behind me, especially the ignorant ones that say "if you don't like it, then don't use it". As for the anti ursan posters, heres my incentive; prenerf 'seed of life' and 'theres nothing to fear' will not make people suffer exclusion just because they dont' have EOTN, unlike ursan blessing. And ursan does provide a means to those who normally would suffer exclusion to the holy trinity a way to get accepted into pugs. Yes, there will always be people who abuse ursan to get what they want faster and easier, but this is a moot point. Will you nerf ursan to get to them and hurt those few who truly have to rely on ursan to avoid suffering exclusivity from the holy trinity? So, now all pro and anti-ursans, humbly sign for anet to unnerf 'seed of life' and 'theres nothing to fear'.

Mr. Undisclosed · Apr 17, 2008, 03:41 AM // 03:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_jos

Funny how you actually contradict yourself in this small part of text.
One one side you say you don't see any negative impact on the other side you experienced the exclusion in DoA yourself.
How it works now: own EotN, get Ursan Blessing and work up to a decent rank or be unable to play.
It's the same kind of exclusion only based on having a single skill with a decent rank instead of having the wrong profession.

Also, I don't feel your statement on DoA requiring other characters except a war is entirely true.
I know we used a W/E terra there as tank when a warrior wanted to join and it never was a problem.
Could be it got harder after the change on the spells causing people to look for elementalist tanks instead of warriors, I'm not sure about that.
If we are talking about profession exclusion I'd say look at the assassin.

Now you might not have been able to join a group because you did not have the right skills to tank or because groups had tanks they knew. Also DoA needed one tank and several of other professions, making teaming easier for those players. But it's a different kind of exclusion then profession exclusion.

What the current problem is a profession exclusion.
Only now this profession is not an actual guild wars profession but a virtual profession called Bear, based on one skill, Ursan Blessing.

Don't get me wrong.
I think Ursan Blessing could be an awesome skill to prevent profession discrimination.
Load the skill and you will get an entire different profession, Bear.
One that is powerfull enough to compete with every real profession.
However, it caused the same kind of problem the skill was supposed to solve.
Profession discrimination.

This is part of the core problem presented by Shan.
The other part is having to pay to enter an area with such a group.
Not the entrance fee but either a consumable set (market price around 7K) or chipping in on a set, roughly 1K/set.
I think the first is a bigger problem then the second, the elite areas pay for themself.

Really the people that use tank 'n spank should have no problem using ursan. I believe its considered just as "noob" by most people.

Lady Lozza · Apr 17, 2008, 05:41 AM // 05:41

Shan, while I understand where you a coming from in your suggestion, I believe the problem at hand to be the player base.

For those who seem to have a hard time understanding the issue at hand, the largest problem a number of players (not all) have with Ursan is discrimination.

Ursan requires that you:
1) Own EotN
2) Have farmed "sufficient" Norn points
3) Are not a caster

Regardless of whether PvE may be considered to be broken, the discrimination that Ursan offers is at least equivalent to that of cookie-cutter teams. At least in cookie-cutter teams it was possible to have one "random caster". In cookie-cutter teams it was possible to monk as a ritualist, play a FC nuker, an assassin/dervish/ranger tank. Common, no, but possible.

Ursan requires that a player OWN EotN to play maps which are not in anyway linked to EotN. Ursan requires that you have time to farm Norn ranks, and let's face it r9 or 10 is hardly necessary to successfully play Ursan, yet pugs ask for it all the same. Ursan requires that you be a warrior.

No matter your rank, no matter how you manage to buff your armour, casters stand at a distint disadvantage because of their low (base) armour, to the point where pugs won't take them, and as time goes on this is only likely to get worse. Why? A player who has reached r8 Norn thinks other players should have reached the same rank and therefore only wants to play with people "like him/herself". The longer Ursan exists, the more this will become a problem.

A visit to ToA the other day confirmed this fact. There I was minding my own business when I saw something perculiar. FoW team NM Ursan LF warrior Ursan r9-10. I asked if it was a (timed) speed clear and was told it was not. I asked why the rank requirement, having been a part of a DoA run full of R6 ursans, half of them casters, I was completely mystified as to why a (non-speed-clear) required r9-10. I was told that anyone who hadn't managed to get r9-10 Norn by now had to be a noob.

This attitude is the same attitude that has been prevelant in the game for a little while. No elite armour, no FoW, don't have ALL the elite skills, you must be a noob.

While I applaud a more creative way to try and "get around" the discrimination issues often caused by PvE skills, I don't believe this is the right course. As others have said, it punishes the player who uses a skill or consumable which may benefit the entire party.

Perhaps a better solution would be to limit PvE skills to the maps/campaign they exist/are given in. No more r9-10 requirement for NM FoW or UW.

Mr. Undisclosed · Apr 18, 2008, 01:45 AM // 01:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Lozza

Ursan requires that you:
1) Own EotN
2) Have farmed "sufficient" Norn points
3) Are not a caster

Regardless of whether PvE may be considered to be broken, the discrimination that Ursan offers is at least equivalent to that of cookie-cutter teams. At least in cookie-cutter teams it was possible to have one "random caster". In cookie-cutter teams it was possible to monk as a ritualist, play a FC nuker, an assassin/dervish/ranger tank. Common, no, but possible.

Ursan requires that you be a warrior.

A visit to ToA the other day confirmed this fact. There I was minding my own business when I saw something perculiar. FoW team NM Ursan LF warrior Ursan r9-10. I asked if it was a (timed) speed clear and was told it was not. I asked why the rank requirement, having been a part of a DoA run full of R6 ursans, half of them casters, I was completely mystified as to why a (non-speed-clear) required r9-10.

To be honest you can be a caster and get into ursan groups. Cookie cutter builds require you to own certain campaigns.

Really the only way you'll get into teams without a cookie cutter is with guild groups so in reality I see them as fairly equal.

You don't have to be a warrior to be accepted into ursan groups. I've monked for quite a few, I know.

Sure it wasn't timed but wouldn't you want the most efficient way of doing something?

Arkantos · Apr 18, 2008, 01:55 AM // 01:55

The "if you don't like ursan don't play it" argument is quite dumb. Ursan affects the economy, promotes rank discrimination (in PvE, who knew) and prevents players who find a 4 skill button mashing build boring, and do not want to play it find groups.

So please, enough with it. Ursan helps some, it hurts some. If people want to complain about it, they have every right to.

Lady Lozza · Apr 18, 2008, 02:08 AM // 02:08

Ok, true you have to be a warrior OR a HB monk.

The problem with NM is that it is so easy I doubt it is any more efficient to clear with a r5+ team as with a r9-10 team simply because the greatest time is spent moving between mobs, and that doesn't change with rank.

While I firmly believe that people should play how they want when they want, my biggest issue with ursan is that it has brough rank discrimination to PvE. True, titles to some extent did introduce that - but not to the extent that ursan has. Let's face it PvE isn't THAT hard. It can be "conqured" by any variety of builds in a good team working together.

Ursan are very similar to cookie-cutter builds BUT cookie cutter builds didn't normally require you to have R6 KoaBD, or LS, or LDoA. It was rare (though not unheard of) to have teams formed on the basis of (elite) armour.

I don't hate ursan (I have and do ursan), I don't hate PvE skills (I very much enjoy using some of them), and to be honest I don't even pug much anymore. On the flip side I do understand that no everyone has access to a good list of friends, or have the luck to be in an active or helpful guild, and finding one isn't always that easy. For the poor individuals who are only just starting out in the game this is made all the more harder - this is the fact that I lament.

As I said in my previous post, this (the state of pugs and groups in general) is NOT THE FAULT of ursan, ursan has componded the problem slightly, but it is not the cause of it. The problem is the attitude of the players, and I see no easy fix for that.